Natalie Kuldell Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, Carolyn. Hello. I’m so glad you’re here. Thank you for joining and having this conversation. I realized in sitting down to think about chatting with you that you and I don’t know each other for all that long. I look back in my emails and it was actually about a year ago that we got connected and started to get introduced, but I’m very, very glad that we did because you are the right mix, the, the sort of unicorn mix of, of science and teacher and, and general interest in, and the outgoingness that, that we love in bio builder. So anyway, with all that, as a preamble and introduction, maybe you can introduce yourself and say where you are and what you’re doing these days.
Carolyn Mills Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah. Oh, how flattering? Um, I, so I am Carolyn Mills. I am, I guess I’m a post-doctoral researcher now. I got my PhD at MIT, finished it in 2019. I think it was like five and a half, six year endeavor. And yeah, now I’m working as a post-doctoral researcher and that is mostly just kind of looks like working in a lab. Um, there’s a boss of you providing some funding that has some like expertise. But especially now as a post-doctoral researcher, you just get to work on a lot of fun science projects.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I miss you in, in Cambridge and I don’t think we got to know one another at MIT, unfortunately, but why don’t you say where you are right now?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I am at Northwestern university, living in Chicago, Northwestern, just in Evanston right there. Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
And whose lab are you in and how do you like her lab? Because I know she’s a rock star.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Oh yes. So I’m in Danielle Tullman_Ercek. And choosing a postdoc was an interesting process and I’m sure it looks different for every person who goes through it. Um, but I kind of had an idea at the end of my PhD. A postdoc is kind of like your opportunity to expand your scientific knowledge a little bit, go outside of your, obviously take some things with you, but like outside of your comfort zone, and learn something new and that’s at least that’s how I saw this opportunity, in a direction that I was interested in, but didn’t necessarily have all the tools that I would need to work in that area. So knowing the kind of the direction I wanted to go in, which is actually one that was more towards like synthetic biology and just, you know, protein biology in general.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So I went to someone in my home department where I did my PhD, who had expertise in that field. And I was like, who are, you know, the people in this area that, you know, she gave me a huge list of people. I went to their websites. You can usually find information on those, like what people are kind of working on, narrowed it down to the ones that I was like, yes, this sounds like exactly what I’d like to be working on. And then I had the fortunate circumstance of, I actually went to a conference pretty shortly after I had narrowed that list down. And a lot of the people that I was looking at were at that conference. So I was able to see either them or their students present to get an idea of like, you know, you can read something on a website, but it’s not until you see the personality of the person and the way they talk about their science, that you can get an idea of whether it’s a good fit. And I heard Danielle speak, and I really liked the way she talked about her science at a conversation with her afterwards. And then there was, there was one other lab that I looked at. It was also at Northwestern. Um, and yeah, after I interviewed I just decided this was like the slightly work I was a little bit more interested in and that’s kind of how it that’s how the funnel,
Speaker 1 (04:21):
What you touch on is something that I’m not sure everybody knows, but that, you know, all through your career, it’s like that. You’re so accomplished. Right. You did your undergraduate, you did your graduate work, right. You’re looking for your next step, your post-doctoral fellowship and your research. But you’re asking people, you’re like, I don’t know who does this, or I don’t know what would in any, it’s just, um, curiosity you’re in an inquiry and you rely on your network to ask questions of others. I think that asking other people especially when, like you say, you have to go outside your comfort zone, which your postdoc is a great time to do that. So with all that said, how is it going? What are you working on? And how’s it going?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Um, Oh yeah, that’s such a great point. And I think it, that you make, and I just wanted to like revisit it for a minute, but it is like, you know, I like that. I’m really glad that I went to someone who was an expert in the field because I think sometimes it’s easy to like see the, you know, super famous people in the field, like Frances Arnold in protein engineering, but you might miss, you know, pretty well-known people that are a little further down, but that’s, it’s such a great point that you make. Um, yeah, I am working on, let’s see, there’s, there’s like five or six different projects in general, but I would say my main focus of what I am doing, um, concerns structural proteins, these proteins are like nano containers. So, um, the particular system that we’re looking at are these protein bound organelles in bacteria.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So normally you think of like bacteria, they don’t have this like spatial organization that eukaryotes have or something like that. Um, and that’s how we kind of like distinguished them away from the higher order organisms. But, um, bacteria, do yhave these weird little organelles in them that are actually made of proteins instead of lipids. Um, and they’re, it’s just, it’s wild. There’s like so many different proteins that come together to form these organelles. And they are able to impart these really unique functions in the bacteria. So in like cyanobacteria, the ones that kind of are able to photosynthesize these organelles are super helpful there because some of the enzymes that do the conversion of CO2 into a feed it into the rest of the cell are super slow. And so they leverage this, like instead of trying to make the enzyme better, they leverage this like spatial organization to approve it. Um, I’m looking at a different type of one that actually are found in like enteric bacteria to help them kind of like sneak into your gut and use, use food in your gut that normal bacteria can. So they kind of like, that’s the unique function that the ones that we work on are associated with, but, um, in the end kind of like the synthetic biology way, we’re kind of trying to look at how we can, you know, take those advantages and use them for you say, like producing a chemical or something like that.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
It’s so interesting. The only bacterial organelle that I was at all aware of was this flotation device that was used in an iGEM project, like early on iGEM, right. It’s able to like contain gases and help bacteria float. So it’s really incredible, um, that, yeah, there are these like concentrations of proteins inside the, you know, otherwise soupy mix of a bacteria and allow the cell to solve the challenges that it’s facing. So there’s like a huge scientific opportunity to understand those better and to figure out how they work. And then with synthetic biology, like you say, to take what you’ve learned and use it for something. So, that’s, that’s very cool, really interesting stuff. And how is it going?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Oh, um, it’s going well. I think we, uh, see, you know, it’s, it’s super interesting. I think starting as a postdoc compared to like a PhD student where your project is depending somewhat linear, you know, you have, you have this overarching theme, um, you know, maybe it, depending on your postdoc where you’re getting funding from, you may have a very specific set of things you’re supposed to do, but I think in general, there’s it’s kind of like you get all this expertise from your PhD, you kind of get like booted off the ledge into this new field, and then you kind of get your feet wet and start to figure out what’s interesting, which has been a really fun experience. You know, you just, I feel like the first six months or so, or just like learning all the stuff I need to learn to be able to ask questions.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Um, yeah. Now that, now that I’m a little bit past that point, I’ve been here for like a year in three or four months at this point we’re looking at questions of, so we do have these like synthetic biology questions repurposing these organelles, but, um, we’re now, you know, looking at some other fundamental questions of like, there’s so many protein components that go into these shells, like that form, these things that are like closed off and they have to be closed off, like how do those come together? And, um, yeah, it’s, it’s a lot of fun. Um, I love the people that I work with and my bosses well just yeah, yeah, yeah. All great. All great things on everyone, all the science.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah. Somebody said that, you know, liking who you work with is incredibly important. One of the other folks we talk to in one of these conversations said if you like who you work with, the days go fast and the work is, is good. If you don’t like who you work with, it’s really hard. Even if you like the work, if you don’t like who you’re working with, it can be a real drag to get through the days. I’m really glad you found a mix of both. That’s really great. That’s awesome. Um, so let’s see. Um, so did you, did you always know that you wanted to be a scientist and be doing research? I’m guessing you didn’t always know about these, these protein structures.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, that is very correct. Um, I honestly, I, I didn’t, um, I think, I don’t know. I, when I was really little, I wanted to be like a vet because I loved animals. Um, but I eventually realized that like, you have to like to treat animals and do that. And that would make me really sad. So, um, I don’t know. I think as I originally, when I was applying to undergrad for the first time, I was like, I want to be a physicist. Um, cause I like math and stuff. And uh, I originally thought I didn’t want to do biology at all. Cause I like, you know, I like chemistry, I like physics. Um, and eventually I found my way into chemical engineering as like my undergrad degree, which was this kind of like fun interface for me at least of, um, you know, there’s some, some chemistry, there’s some math, there’s some physics and they all kind of like come together in this application to like making things, um, and there’s practical considerations as well.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So that, that combination of things for me was compelling. Um, and I was thinking about this and leading up to this meeting of like, when did I realize that I love protein so much because I think if I had to say one thing that I love in science, it’s how interesting proteins are. Um, but I remember the, in undergrad, there was a seminar series and like your first year or so, um, different professors in the department kind of talk more about what they do. Um, and I remember the presentation by actually a professor I ended up working with, but he was talking about how proteins are these like weird molecules that now you have this like sequence. And somehow that sequence translates into this really complex fullest structure that enables all these functions. And I feel like the more that I learned about them, just like the more, the more that expanded, you know, even on a peptide level, they do some stuff. Um, sometimes they catalyze reactions. Sometimes they bind to things, but other times they’re, they’re these like structural building blocks, like the ones that I’m working on now. And, um, that’s, it’s just the funnest. And I think as I continue to go through my science journey, that’s, that’s my like secret thing that I love so much.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah. I mean, it is kind of magical, isn’t it like incredible. And I think it’s wonderful to, to feel like you’re, you’re still fascinated by like the very core feature of what it is that you’re working on. Right. Like I think it’s great. Um, cause it is awesome. Like it just gives you, it is incredible that it happens this way and that, that, that we can learn enough about it to try to predict it and understand it and use it and things like that. Um, it’s the combination of being able to go like, wow, that really happens. And also the, what can I do with that? Right. Like do something with that. So awesome. That’s really, really cool. So, um, it sounds like you’ve had some very good teachers along the way. I think many, many of us who are in science definitely feel that way. So have there been particular people that stand out for you to move you along your path towards science and engineering?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I think so actually the same person at my first year who gave that talk on these like proteins. Um, he actually was one of the professors in undergrad. I will say my journey to science was I decided I was going to be an engineer and I didn’t actually realize that research science was a thing. I kind of knew about the higher degrees, but I was like, that just sounds like a lot of work. I don’t want to take classes for like a million years. And, um, he was actually the one who, when we, when I took a class with him later, um, kind of brought into that cost, which is one of the first ones that we did as chemical engineers specifically within our department. So it makes sense. This was like the first time you’re moving with your cohort. He said, you know, this is when you should be thinking about maybe summer internships.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So you could also do research and he was the one who brought that up. And I was like, well, I’m not doing anything for this summer. None of the classes I need are offered, so I might as well and you get paid for it. Oh my goodness. Of course might as well do some science instead of sitting at home doing nothing. Um, and that’s kind of where it, where it started. And so I think he definitely really kick-started all of that, which I appreciated a lot in this, like you know, helping, helping kind of like the entire class realized that this was an option. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Cause you don’t, you don’t know what you don’t know. Right? I think there are those moments where you’re like, wait, I could do this. I could actually turn this into a job. I could like, yes, work this. That’s pretty great. So, do you want to do a name check on who he is and where you were?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
His name is Scott Shell. He’s at UC Santa Barbara. So that’s where I was doing the undergrad. Um, and he is still there. I want to say he’s, you know, in, in some department chair, department vice chair, of course he was like wonderful. And also just one of the most alarmingly organized people ever, which is great.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
That’s what we all aspire to, to be organized.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
It can be a very uncommon feature in professors, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yes, it is a super power, so that’s awesome. It’s a wonderful sort of path that you’ve gone on. It sounds like it’s been sort of directed by good fortune, you know, finding right people, right time, being very curious and, and ready to be sort of inspired and, and interested in things, which is really wonderful. Um, you know, willing to change directions, right. If you think you’re going to be a physicist and you’re like, well, biology, that’s it. And then it turns out that biology and chemistry and physics and math are all kind of the same thing. That’s really, really great. But, um, you also have one more super power in you, which is the interest in teaching, which is really what, what brought us together. So, um, I think it might come as a surprise to people that, um, you can be an incredibly accomplished researcher and scientist and engineer, but also, you know, have interest and concern about teaching and education for the next gen of individuals. So, um, I don’t know. Do you know where that came from or how it fits into your overall plans?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Um, yeah. I honestly think that that was something that I knew first, like that that’s something that’s always been there. So I don’t know if I would, um, I don’t know if I know where that came from. I can’t pinpoint a time where I was like, Oh yeah, I love teaching. Um, but I think I definitely like always, always enjoyed, um, the, this process. I think the fun part about it is I realized I love learning and because I love learning, I love teaching as well, because I think you learn so much when you teach. Um, and I remember so when I was in high school taking like calculus and, um, in that classroom environment, I had a teacher who was very much like, you know, have students try to like explain things to each other, come up on the board and explain, Hey, do this.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And it was on that. I started, I feel like that may have been part of the moment where I realized like how much fun it is to learn how to teach and how it like gives you these weird insights, not weird, important insights into like what, um, what you actually know and what the, how well you actually know it. And that I’d say that might be where it, it had started, but since then, I’ve I continue to, you know, um, enjoy it. And I think that is always the same. Like there’s so much that I can learn from the people that I teach and the questions that they ask and what they’re curious about. Um, so like in a mentorship situation, but also, um, you know, working with the BioBuildersClub is also a great reminder of like what, you know, where, where you have to kind of like go back to and remember like, where were the fundamental principles of build this up?
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I think you’ve touched on some of what I love about synthetic biology is that, you know I’m also, I’m a scientist, right. But I love that synthetic biology shortens the distance between what you know, and what you don’t. If you want to figure out what you don’t actually know about science, try to build something based on what you do know. And then all of a sudden you realize, Oh, I don’t understand it the way I think. I think teaching is the same thing, right? If you think you understand something, try to teach it. And then all of a sudden you’re like, Oh wait, that doesn’t work quite right. Let me think about that again. So I think it shortens the distance from what you think, you know, and what you actually know is, is by teaching. So, um, I think there’s a parallel, uh, to, to doing of synthetic biology and to the teaching of synthetic biology there. That’s really interesting. Um, we love having you as part of the BioBuilderClub to mentor a team. It’s really, it’s really great. How is that going? Do you have a team project that you lead and are interested in
Speaker 2 (20:59):
We’re just getting them started. I think it’s actually, I’m not sure what the format looked like before, before it was, you know, all digital, um, yeah, there, I mean, I think the students started with a couple of different ideas and kind of like the first time I came on, they had this list of questions for me and I was like, Oh my gosh, as with all science, I was like, well, there’s, there’s a concrete answer to some of these, the other things you might just have to look into and kind of try it out. There’s no way to know ahead of time. Um, yeah. So, you know, since then we’ve been to their club meetings, um, many weeks and kind of building up and figuring out the best way to start framing the project and figure out, um, what we’re doing there, the teacher who runs the Bible, her clothes, she’s super wonderful and be kind of like brainstorm a little bit too, of like, what’s the best way to start bringing a little bit of structure into this process so that we can, um, you know, so I think it’s especially easy when you’re not in the room together to feel like a little bit lost and a bit of drift.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
So, um, she’s really great at, you know, being able to like really quickly identify those, the ways in which like we can kind of bring it back. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah. Well, I’m very grateful for the time you’re spending, helping to build this community around synthetic biology, especially for these high school students who are, you know, for the most part working remotely, as you say. It’s a really great thing and I’m sure you’re helping the teacher as well. It’s, there’s a lot, a lot of work to do for sure. And it takes a lot of hands. So thank you for all that I really appreciate.