Natalie Kuldell (00:02):
Good morning, Chloe. Nice to see you
Chloe Baron (00:05):
Good morning. Thank you for having me.
Natalie Kuldell (00:08):
So glad you could join us today. Thank you so much. You have such an interesting research path and so many great interests. Maybe we can start by just having you introduce yourself and say where you are right now and what you’re doing for work.
Chloe Baron (00:25):
Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Chloe Baron. I am currently a post-doctoral fellow at Boston Children’s Hospital and Harvard University and, in the lab that I am at, I focus on studying blood stem cells in leukemia in Zebrafish. So I actually do cancer stem cell research in, what I think is the coolest model organism out there, which are, Zebrafish.
Natalie Kuldell (00:53):
Yeah, I think it would be a surprise to most people that you could do cancer research in a fish. Yeah. And, besides just the very cool system that you’re working in is there something about your work that is really makes you excited every day to go in?
Chloe Baron (01:13):
I mean, only one thing? I think that is hard to pick, but I just find again and I’m happy to talk a little bit further about the Zebrafish, but I just feel like it’s such a cool model that you can use in endless ways. And my favorite part that literally gets me every day to the lab doing my experiments is to work with those embryos. In just a couple of days in the lab under the microscope, you can see the development of one single cell and just in under two days you can watch every single cell divide, every single tissue form, every single organ happened right in front of your eyes. And in just under two days you have an organism and just like that, you can, um, use many, many different methods, also in the context of cancer, but also in healthy development. And try to ask any kind of question that you’d like to answer. And honestly, I guess my answer then is kind of the endless possibilities that that brings is really what gets me to work in the morning.
Natalie Kuldell (02:15):
Yeah. Boy, biology is incredible. Isn’t it? It’s weird and fascinating and beautiful and yes, as you say, it holds endless possibilities for asking incredibly important questions and cool questions in ways that give you real great answers. So that’s terrific. Now, so you said you were a post-doc, I’m not sure that everybody might know exactly what a post-doc is or does, do you want to explain a little bit about, your training up to this point?
Chloe Baron (02:46):
Yeah, absolutely. So, being a post-doc actually refers to the stage in my career as a scientist that I’m at, and post-doc actually postdoctoral researcher means after the doctorate. So that’s just means that my previous stage was getting a doctorate or PhD in biology, and to get to that point, uh, I actually took a little bit of a different path than all the American students that will watch this because I was actually born and raised and I did all my studies in France. So in France, the system is slightly different, but in the end it’s also a little bit similar. Once I graduated high school, I entered, I went to university and did a bachelor in life science, which takes three years. And then after this, I did a master’s in molecular and cellular biology was which takes two years.
Chloe Baron (03:43):
And this three plus two years, bachelor plus master is what is required in France – actually in Europe in general -to enter a graduate program and then become a PhD candidate. And at the end of that obtain a PhD. So I actually didn’t do my PhD in France, even though I did my bachelor and my master’s in France, I actually moved to the Netherlands, which it’s not very, very far. You can drive from France to the Netherlands as quickly as you can drive from Boston to New York. So it’s very, very close, but in the Netherlands, I went to Utrecht University where I spent about five years and I got a PhD in cancer, stem cell and developmental biology. And so I always like to refer at the end of my PhD to when I finished school, you know, been there, done that a while. I’m really done with that. And I feel like a researcher at the end of their PhD is kind of done with their training.
Chloe Baron (04:36):
And that’s what you kind of are as a post-doctoral researcher. You’re kind of done with school. You’ve done that for a while. You know now how, what it means and what it takes to be a researcher and that you’re joining a lab as a postdoc, postdoctoral fellow, and you kind of are more on your own. You’re doing research on your own within the lab structure, which is actually the last step before you usually decide to become your own principal investigator, therefore leading your own lab. So basically I’m just, you know, following all the academic steps one at a time. But the post-doc is what feels now like the beginning of independence after studies.
Natalie Kuldell (05:17):
Yeah, it’s a surprisingly long path, but interesting. And as you say, there’s just a lot of training along the way and now a transition to more independence, but under an umbrella of established research lab. And so, maybe looking ahead, do you have hopes of starting your own research lab somewhere?
Chloe Baron (05:40):
Yeah, I do. I think that’s kind of the dream for a lot of people. I’m definitely considering that option. I think I’ve been a post-doc now for just two years and, you know, research projects, especially when using a model organism and studying cancer often take you, I think four to five years. So I definitely still want to be a post-doc for a few more years. And I feel like, again, like I said, this post-doc time is really when you become independent. And when you start to realize what it actually takes to lead a research project, or even multiple research projects also, explore other things like mentoring students, mentoring other grad students, learning all that is necessary to know and enjoy aside from the science. Because if I decide to have my own lab, yes, I’m going to have to do science, but I’m also going to have to take care of a team I’m going to have to mentor them, uh, spend time with them.
Chloe Baron (06:34):
And also write grants to obtain funding for the lab. Teach also, which is something that I love to do as well. So I feel like these years as a postdoctoral fellow is really a time to explore all those things and, you know, I would love to start my own lab, but I’m also still exploring what that means to learn all those skills and also find out if I like that. I think it’s a really important thing in career, uh exploration, but also decision when the time is there, do I actually like doing what I’m about to commit to?
Natalie Kuldell (07:07):
Well as I listened to your day-to-day and your hopes going forward, you know, it’s a wonderful thing that you’d like going in every day and enjoy your work because there is so much to learn and so much growth that keeps happening and it’s, um, you know, it is unsettling and it is exploratory to figure out, do I like this? Am I good at that? How will I approach this? So to have that growth mindset and the open-heartedness to new learning and new experiences, I think, that can make what sounds like a very long training period actually still feel very satisfying. And, uh, as if you’re on track, not that you’re stalled, but that you’re on track towards something.
Chloe Baron (07:51):
And I think if I can jump on that, because I really love this angle that you took is that, probably hearing about all the years I spent in school and all that it means to actually become a researcher, it can feel like a gigantic mountain to climb and that, you know, reaching satisfaction and reaching achievement is only when you reach the top of the mountain, but actually not. I really find, you know, my bachelor’s and master’s and PhD, and now post-doc, it’s not just one gigantic mountain that you’ll be successful in your reach once you finished all that. But there are so many intermediate points where you’re like, I did that. I accomplished that, what a rewarding thing I’m doing. And I really want to emphasize this because I feel like a lot of young students are like, oh my God, I don’t want to spend 10 years in school. That’s horrible.
Chloe Baron (08:47):
Actually, even though that’s, you know, in the end, what we did, it doesn’t feel like that’s what’s happening because every step of your curriculum is different. There is time in the classroom, there is time in the lab. It’s really, really variable and you’re become so invested in your own research that it doesn’t feel like work for most of your PhD. And, so I really think this reward system that happens and all these levels of satisfaction along the way make everything better. Yeah. Thank you for pointing that.
Natalie Kuldell (09:17):
It’s funny. I was going to ask you if knowing what you know now would you have started on this long and challenging, but satisfying journey back when you started. And I think you have answered that. So maybe instead, I’ll ask you, you know, when did you decide you were really interested in science and that this was something you were going to pursue professionally?
Chloe Baron (09:40):
I think it’s kind of, so actually I said that I did a bachelor and a masters. I kind of lied a little bit by omission. I actually sneaked in a year of medical school because actually when I graduated high school, I come from a family of doctors and I was like, maybe that’s also what I’m supposed to do. And after a year of medical school, I was like, that’s not for me. I am not the kind of student that wants to, or actually enjoys learning whole books by heart. And, you know, really spending all this time just very in the book kind of style of studying. And I was really someone that needed puzzles and I really have this vivid memory of me as a young child. I was, wanting to fix puzzles, wanting to think about things and be like, Hey, how about we do this instead, rather than learning about how bones are called and how they link to each other, you can’t do anything about that.
Chloe Baron (10:35):
You have to just learn that. And I felt that was very frustrating for me. And even though I’ve loved science, always from a very young age and my year in medical school was filled with science. So I definitely love that. But indirectly I started to realize that I needed something more, with more freedom, was more, uh, investigation with more unknown and it was more, I think, what is excitement for me. And so from there, I branched out from medical school to a bachelor in biology, which, you know, when I was in my bachelor, I had no clue I would be doing what I am doing today, but at least I felt in the right space to learn the things that later on will bring me eventually to where I’m at now. And then I kind of, you know, followed the track, but also bent the track to my needs.
Chloe Baron (11:22):
So kind of, you know, looking for the master program that would fit my growing interest in stem cells and also actually following a personal desire to study blood by knowing people, unfortunately that have suffered through blood cancer. So this was also a personal wish that I had. And so, you know, molding all these desires and also experiences that in my own life, I kind of, followed what was there and bent it to what I wanted. And it felt so basically, I don’t think I can really answer your question because it feels like, kind of always wanted that, but also it just happens as you go. And I think for students, there’s often, you know, what do you want to do when you grow up? Which should be a question that once, oh, I want to be an anesthesiologist, a pediatric anesthesiologist. Nobody really knows that. And I think this is something to realize that that’s okay because nobody at 16 or 17 year old, I knew nothing at 16 and 17 years old. I didn’t know what I wanted to become, but I knew one thing, I liked science and then I tried something wasn’t for me, but then I branched out and built upon that. And there I am.
Natalie Kuldell (12:38):
What a wonderful story. Cause I think it is incredibly powerful to be able to step back and say, what I am doing right now feels like the right thing, or doesn’t feel like the right thing. And to know that there is a path to either take what you’re doing that feels great and seems right for you and move in a more positive direction or decide that you’re walking down the wrong road and it’s time to turn around and walk in a different direction.
Chloe Baron (13:05):
It’s totally okay. And sometimes you have these years where you’re like, oh, maybe that was a mistake. That was not for me. And it feels like the end of the world. If you kind of waste a year first, it’s not wasted. You’ve learned during that time. But also it’s only a year. Imagine if, because of that year, you would end up choosing a career that you’re going to hate for 50 years, you’re going to have to do it. What a terrible thing that would be. So use all that one learns during the process to actually guide the process itself.
Natalie Kuldell (13:34):
I think that sounds amazing. Yeah. Not every day is a joyful, perfect day, but you kind of know when you’re in the right spot and when you’re not in the right spot. Wow. What an amazing story. And so on top of all that, I know you have additional interests beyond the bench and science and that is with teaching. You are a wonderful and dedicated teacher. Can you say a little bit about what kind of teaching you’re doing and what you like about it?
Chloe Baron (14:05):
Yeah, so I feel like teaching is part of my daily life in the lab because working in the lab is highly collaborative and I work in the lab where there’s more than 30 people and we all are at different stages of our careers. So remember when I was talking about students, undergrads and also grad students, and then post-docs, and then technicians that assist us along the way, animal welfare, people that take care of our animals and on a daily basis, there’s an opportunity to teach someone about something that you’ve learned on your own path that I was just describing. So I feel like that is part of the work. But I think, I’m very actually passionate to devote some time to that part of the work because not only I really like teaching something to someone, I also love learning something back from that person.
Chloe Baron (14:58):
And I think it’s when there is this collaborative dynamic and this exchange and this communication with people within the lab that you can actually learn and teach all these things. But then of course, since I moved to Boston, Boston is kind of the Mecca of science and education. There’s so many opportunities. And I come from Utrecht University in the Netherlands, which is actually pretty small compared to it. So when I moved here, I very quickly was introduced and got familiar with many teaching opportunities. So I volunteered for some organizations where I go into classrooms. Well, I used to go now it’s more virtual, but you know, we make the best out of that. And, we teach students, middle schoolers and high schoolers, about how we use Zebrafish, our favorite model organism to study blood and also skin cancer. So within just an hour of a cause we can actually bring to Zebrafish to the classroom to show our model organism and explain how we can modify their DNA to study what happens to the cancer cells and how cancer arises in those organisms.
Chloe Baron (16:05):
And the last thing that I’m actually love the most and the most proud of is that in the lab that I’m in, which is led by Dr. Leonard Zon, with a colleague of mine, we have created a summer program for high school students. So for two weeks, we have high school students. So before it was in person, but now it is virtual, we have actually managed to expand it and even make it better with the virtual format. So we have 30 students, which we actually pay every summer part-time. So this is a paid opportunity for the students to come in and literally do their own research project in Zebrafish. The students designed their hypothesis, I and the colleagues, we performed the experiments for them live on Zoom, and then they analyze the data. They conclude on the data and they present their research. And we have built this program, which we really, really are in love with because we get to interact with wonderful students. We welcome anybody without any research experience. We want this program to be your students first, basically welcome into the research environment. And, I just love planning this camp throughout the year and teaching it in the summer. It’s wonderful.
Natalie Kuldell (17:19):
That is a life-changing experience that you are offering for those students. I know that had I not had a research experience as a high school student, I am not sure I would have pursued the, college work, graduate work, post-doc work to become a PhD in science to actually do science and to experience the reality of it is so powerful that I don’t know why we hide the most exciting parts of science.
Chloe Baron (17:46):
I had no clue what was happening in a research lab until my third year of bachelor, and then I felt like that was so, so late because, you know, I still found my way through this track but I would have been actually so much more excited and certain about it if I would have been exposed to it earlier. So I do think being exposed is really, an important thing, which I’m so happy to deliver to students every year.
Natalie Kuldell (18:13):
Well, I am sure they are delighted to have the opportunity. So, before we close out, do you want to say if a student was interested in finding more information about that program, is there a place that they could go?
Chloe Baron (18:26):
Yeah, absolutely. So, if you just Google camp ZON Z-O-N on Google, you will find our lab website The Zon Lab at Boston Children’s Hospital, and you will see all the details about the camp. And you can also, I’m happy to leave the link and also my contact info to you. So if any students interested, they can reach out and I’m happy to touch base on that with any interested students.
Natalie Kuldell (18:51):
You are a force of nature and doing so much good in your research and through your teaching. And I really appreciate your taking some time to talk with me today to share the highs and the intricacies and the opportunities that you’re bringing. So thank you so much.
Chloe Baron (19:12):
Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure to chat.