Natalie Kuldell (00:02):
Hi, Michelle. It’s so nice to see you. Thank you for coming to do this conversation.
Michelle Dziejman (00:08):
Hi, Natalie, my pleasure. It’s great to be here and I’m happy to see some students have joined us too.
Natalie Kuldell (00:12):
It’s really a joy. Yeah. So Michelle, you and I have known each other a very long time, but I am very happy to get to introduce you to others now, but maybe we’ll start by having you say who you are and where you work and maybe a little bit about your lab and your research?
Michelle Dziejman (00:28):
Absolutely. So, my name is Michelle Dziejman and I’m here at the university of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry. We are a medical institution, a medical center with a hospital and an academic component, but we also have an undergraduate institution just right across the street. And in fact, I was an undergraduate myself at the University of Rochester. So, um, my faculty position here is a little bit like coming back home. My laboratory here focuses on a particular bacterium, which is called Vibrio cholera, and that bacterium causes the diarrheal disease cholera. We don’t really see much of that disease here in the United States. It’s mostly a disease that’s prevalent in developing countries in Southeast Asia and Africa and parts of South America. But we do see imported cases of the disease here. And part of the reason I’m studying this disease is because the bacterium is an environmental organism and it exists just perfectly fine in environmental waters. But when people ingest the organism, if they are ingesting a pathogenic strain can become infected and have really severe consequences. So it’s an interesting organism for a lot of different reasons. And, I’ve studied it for a number of years and I’m sort of happy to train students and try to make progress on understanding more about how the bacterium causes disease here at the university.
Natalie Kuldell (01:51):
Yeah, it’s, it is such an important public health issue. And again, it’s not in our backyard, but it’s a global issue for sure. So, do you focus on the public health piece of it, the medical piece, the molecular biology, the environmental?
Michelle Dziejman (02:10):
So my lab focuses almost entirely on the molecular biology aspect and the, what we call the molecular pathogenesis. So understanding how the different proteins that are made by the bacteria interact with the host cell proteins. So that would be the proteins that you and I have in our intestines, in our intestinal epithelium and understanding how those interactions actually cause disease. But one of the reasons I really like studying this organism is because there are a lot of different ways you can study it. So a lot of other investigators in a lot of my other colleagues do focus on the epidemiology, right, or how this organism causes disease from a population standpoint, in different places. Other people focus on the public health aspect, which is related to that, the genealogy aspect. And then people look at it again from a variety of different other ways. They look at it in really biochemical ways and really understanding how those proteins function or they look at it in cell biology ways and how it affects whole cell. So even though I study a very sort of narrow or small part of it, we have a community and a field where we can try to put all the different pieces together and understand the organism and its interactions with humans as a whole.
Natalie Kuldell (03:24):
I think that’s such an important idea that, you know, we can only focus on a piece of the whole puzzle when the puzzle is as big as it is. Right. But that it is the community work and the teamwork and the collaborations that allow you to advance. And work on multiple pieces at once, not on your own, but through partnerships and other people’s efforts and interests.
Michelle Dziejman (03:50):
Exactly. And I think that’s one of the things that I really like most about being a scientist, and being a scientist at a university. It is that idea of collaboration and being able to talk to people who are halfway across the world, who are interested in the disease and the organism, just as well as I can talk to people here in the United States. So people kind of in my backyard who are studying it.
Natalie Kuldell (04:11):
Yeah. I think that’s so great because, you know, some people have a notion that it’s very cutthroat, it’s publisher perish, it’s, you know, me against the world. But I think when you ask people what they like most about academics, it’s the collaborative nature of the work across institutions. And it’s usually also a little bit about training students. So, you do have students in your lab. I know that. Do you want to talk a little bit about how you run your lab?
Michelle Dziejman (04:40):
Sure. So I have students at all different levels in my lab and I have a number of different students at this time and throughout my different, really training career. I’ve seen students at all different levels. I have undergraduates in my lab who have the opportunity to do research for credit. So, here at the University of Rochester and at most other institutions that have a research component associated with them, students can -instead of taking a course -do research for credit. And so that’s a pretty neat way to get involved in a lab and get involved in a little slice of a project and just learn some basic things about how to conduct bench science and get credit for it. Right. And get credit while you’re doing it.
Michelle Dziejman (05:33):
I have a master’s student. So this is a student who has already graduated with her baccalaureate degree. And she’s not sure whether she wants to go on to get a PhD. And she’s not sure if she has enough background or experience. So for her, the master’s was a really good choice because it gives her an opportunity to kind of try it out and see how it feels and see how she does. And then I have graduate students who are working on their PhD, who have come from again, sort of different avenues. Some have come directly from their baccalaureate degrees. Some have taken a couple of years off to work as a technician in the field. Um, and they’ve usually decided to make that commitment for a longer term learning process to take a bigger slice of a project or a bigger slice of the pie in the lab, and try to use that as their vehicle to really learn again, how to be a critical thinking scientist and how to conduct an entry search.
Natalie Kuldell (06:20):
It takes time to be that critical thinking scientist. But, um, I think there’s a lot of joy along the way. A lot of, you know, being part of a community, a group. Your group, I know has had a lot of wonderful people come through it who go on to wonderful careers in science, in communications. And, so you are a wonderful mentor and trainer for them really encouraging them to do, really just about anything they want to do with their PhD or their master’s or their undergraduate degree.
Michelle Dziejman (06:52):
Yeah, thanks Natalie. Those are really kind words. Um, but I think you’re exactly right. It’s school. And I think this is one thing that students, no matter what level they’re at, whether it’s high school or university or college or community college or graduate school it’s school, um, you’re not expected to know everything. You’re certainly not expected to know everything when you come in. We kinda like you know, some things, right. That’s why you’re there, right? Cause you’re moving up, but you’re not expected to know everything and you’re not expected to learn everything instantly, either. It’s a process and it does take time and different people move along in that process at different paces and in different ways. And it’s my job to help you right. To sort of facilitate that learning process, but it’s also my job to train you as best I can so that when I’m done with you and when you’re done in my lab, you can do whatever you want. Right. And whatever that might be, and whether it’s in science or communication or public health or something else, you have that background in that training to be able to make those choices. It’s the freedom to do what you want.
Natalie Kuldell (08:01):
Yup. So, tell me about your training. Like, I know a little bit about it cause we had some overlap, but maybe back up a little bit further than that and say, when did you get interested in science? Did you know you wanted to do science? Where did you go to school? Things like that. I think it would be really interesting to know how you got to where you are.
Michelle Dziejman (08:25):
Sure. So right. We, we did meet as graduate students and, it was a little bit of time ago and it’s hard for me to remember even a time before I was a graduate student, right. This is how the time goes by. I think when you’re young, you sort of don’t don’t necessarily realize that, but there was a time before graduate school. And, um, as I mentioned, I was an undergraduate here at the University of Rochester and I knew I was interested in biology and in the biological sciences. And very early on, I knew that I was interested in research and I can’t really explain why or how I knew that at the time. And I know that sounds kind of weird. Right? You sort of think like, oh, people should be able to pinpoint in time some formative moment or, um, when they made that decision.
Michelle Dziejman (09:13):
And I can’t really do that in a very specific way. I can tell you, I liked problem solving and I can tell you in high school, I even enjoyed math. I enjoyed what in my day we called it algebra and trigonometry. I think it has a whole set of different names now, depending on what state you’re in, but I always enjoyed problem solving even with numbers. And I enjoy problem solving in every other aspect of the classes that I could take in high school too. And I did have a biology teacher in ninth grade, which in New York state at that time, if you were in a particular class, you could take an advanced level biology class and do dissections and learn about organisms and you know, whole bodies and things. And if I look back now, I think that actually was a formative experience because I had a teacher who was not only an excellent teacher, but he was also just really encouraging.
Michelle Dziejman (10:11):
And again, I didn’t realize it at the time because I think you sometimes take those things for granted, right? You focus on the people who are telling you what you can’t do, but it’s the people who are telling you either what you can do or just telling you, just do it that are the ones that you really should be listening to and spending your time with. So in retrospect, I’m actually very grateful to him for that opportunity and even grateful to some of my math teachers who encouraged me to try to continue to solve problems when they seemed really tough. So when I entered university, I knew that I was interested in biology and I knew that I wanted to get research experience as soon as possible because I wanted to find out if I liked it, right. Sort of solving problems in your head and on paper are different than working at the bench with your hands.
Michelle Dziejman (10:57):
And so I did take advantage of some of these independent study opportunities to work with people. But the way I actually first got started in a lab was by washing dishes. I had a summer job. Really, this was a volunteer job. It wasn’t even paid at home in Buffalo where I grew up. Um, and that was a contact I had made through one of my professors here at the University of Rochester. I said, Hey, I’m interested in research during the summer. How do I do this? And they said, okay, I know somebody in Buffalo, go talk to them. And so I went and talked to that person and he said, well, I can’t take anybody in my lab, but go talk to this person. So I went and talked to the next person and he said, yeah, sure. You want to wash dishes in my lab?
Michelle Dziejman (11:37):
You know, you got to show up every day and you can’t be goning to the beach. Now I lived in Buffalo. So like, I don’t know what beach he was thinking, but, I said, okay, yeah, that’s fine with me. And eventually he paired me with a graduate student who was showing me what they were doing and would let me do a couple of very basic things – taught me how to pipette, just taught me how to do some very basic things. And so the next summer I actually applied for a fellowship through that department. It came back to that same lab and had again, my little small slice of a project working with a student, but I had moved up from glassware washing. Um, and so, you know, very early on, I was able to get a feeling for what it was like to work in lab and to use your hands and your brain to solve problems at the same time.
Michelle Dziejman (12:24):
And I just loved it. So, I had to continue washing dishes throughout that entire time as well, because I needed money as a student. Those were the events that really set me on the path to thinking that not only did I like it, but I actually had some aptitude for it. And, I was really great at washing dishes, but I was performing, performing the experiments. Right. You know, I could do it and I could think about the problems and I didn’t care if it didn’t work the first time. I didn’t care if it didn’t work the second time. I was interested in getting it to work cause I wanted to solve the problem.
Natalie Kuldell (12:59):
Of course, I think that’s so that’s such an amazing story. Right? I think that the notion that you can start somewhere and come in with an openness to learning and curiosity and just by being there, there’s a lot that you are learning. You are a student. It is a place to just get your feet under you in so many ways. Right. Um, I love that story. I think that’s incredible. I’m very grateful to the folks that encouraged you along the way. That’s for sure.
Michelle Dziejman (13:34):
I think one thing, again, looking back in retrospect that I sort of didn’t realize is when I talked to the first person and they said, oh, I can’t, you know, I don’t have room in my lab. I don’t need anybody to wash dishes or whatever, but they recommended someone else to me at the time. It never occurred to me to just say, oh, I guess I’m done. I asked one person and it didn’t work. And some of that is, you know, just a personality thing. Some of that is, probably my parents said, you need to get out of the house, you need to go do something. And, part of that is I had been told no before by a lot of other people in a lot of different ways, but I think in retrospect, not stopping when you hit something that tells you, you can’t do it, but that somebody is giving you another door, that’s open. Right. Again, he didn’t say you can’t wash dishes. That’s the end of it. He said, here, go ask somebody else. So that’s what I did. I went and asked somebody else. Keeping in mind that scientists in general want to help people and love what they do and love to talk about what they do. And in most cases, if they have the time and the resources are more than happy to bring somebody on board, and those are the people you should be looking for.
Natalie Kuldell (14:45):
Absolutely. That’s a really encouraging thing, really a good lesson to take from all that. I think that just keep going right. A certain resilience or, not taking it personally, not taking it as a, I can’t, but as a, this isn’t the right thing, but I’ll go on. So, I have one last question before we turn it over to some of the students, if they have questions. And that is, you’ve done something that I think is hard and, uh, a challenge, I don’t know. Uh, I’m not sure I would have the wherewithal to do it, but that is to give a commencement speech, which you gave last year. So, can you tell me a little bit about that experience and how you thought about reflecting in a way that, that students would take away from their learning, the most important things? Cause I think that, you know, sometimes I’ll ask questions like, what would you tell yourself if you knew what you knew now, but effectively you’ve done that, right? You gave a commencement speech. So, what were your thoughts at that moment to share with people about that journey, that pathway?
Michelle Dziejman (16:02):
Um, I think my thoughts were probably twofold. One was this incredible appreciation for science and for this idea of problem solving and working together at a time where we were just, you know, surrounded by, a pandemic and a lot of things that were difficult and a lot of things that were challenging and a lot of things that were unknown. And I think in science, it’s that unknown that keeps us going. Somebody, in fact, one of my students once said to me that part of the reason he got interested in science was because somebody told him, you’re finding out answers to things that you can’t Google. Google doesn’t know the answer to what you’re working on in lab. So this idea of being a learner and a lifelong learner and understanding that the trajectory of that process is long, but incredibly rewarding. And finding a home, an intellectual home that you use as your base for that or things that were really important to me and that I wanted to convey to the students. And I had hoped that the undergraduates here had found that intellectual home and could reflect and look back on that as really what started them off and propelled them into their careers, whatever that might take them, but that they had gained at least a good foundation here, both intellectually and from a supportive environment to carry on in their lives.
Natalie Kuldell (17:32):
So it’s a great lesson, boy. I hope I’m sure they heard it. I’m sure that it made a difference. So, Michelle, thank you. It’s great to chat with you. You’re really remarkable, wonderful educator, wonderful researcher and a great friend. So thank you.
Michelle Dziejman (17:47):
Well, this has been my pleasure. Thank you, Natalie. A joy always to talk to you and to speak to the students. Thank you.